I feel like the more interesting thing about this whole situation was this seemingly irresistible urge to definitively categorize Noah and Babenzien. You called it an aside, but your comment about NIGO and Pharrell, I felt was actually the main point.
The easier something is to define or categorize, the easier it is to consume or dismiss. NIGO, Pharrell, maybe even Babenzien will continue to defy and expand beyond any simple categorization. And as an artist, isn't that the whole point?
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been doing a lot of brand strategy work and thinking about brand perception lately and this kind of content and framing is so rare to find!
The tension between product and art and making it based on what *you* want as a way to make it resonate with your audience is so real and such a fine line to walk.
Yeah it's honestly a bit of a tough one. I think there are sort of two worlds of thought that come to mind (and that may be an oversimplification).
A "product' first approach arguably takes the stance of catering to the needs/feedback/trends and through continued success, it then potentially ecomes a brand (with extended product lines).
The other approach is obviously less focused on singular products, but rather needs to be more emotive/world-based (fashion essentially).
I think the business mindset of both is slightly different by virtue of the process of building the business and the mid/long-term sustainability due to the creative driver's sustained interest (which is what I argue for).
I stumbled upon your comment on that IG post and was hoping you’d expand on it, haha.
As someone outside the streetwear world, I’ve always read Noah as distinctly preppy and coastal. I went to school near Newport Beach and now spend time in the Northeast — so the sailing cues and “elevated/approachable Americana” come across pretty overtly. I didn’t know much about Babenzien, which tells me the brand’s positioning is working at least for general consumers like me.
I think Amanda’s point sits in a school of thought that even if contemporary streetwear has been so commodified by global Hypebeast culture and celebrity influence that it’s lost its original roots, for the Black community, credibility will always matter. The audience was still having a conversation about cultural authorship and authenticity — one Babenzien made clear he wasn't interested or willing to engage with anymore.
Whether he realized it or not, this was an exit interview and it wasn’t handled with much grace or savvy, haha. I’m a long-time TCRF subscriber, and Recho will always go for the provocative poke if she sees the opening (which we love her for). I just wonder if he or his team prepped for that moment at all.
But in the end, it doesn’t matter. As the founder, he has full agency. Only time and his double down investments will help equally weigh out his resume as you pointed out.
Honestly, I find it unfortunate that we need to tie so much of our identity to "what we do/have done" which seems to be the main sticking point. This is probably a bit of a tangent, but there's a loss of free will if we need to continually manage the expectations of past work.
The aspect of cultural authorship and authenticity is an interesting point.Could you could elaborate on it?
The way I saw it was that the audience felt slighted cause to say Noah wasn't a streetwear brand was to basically turn his back on black culture, which I'm not sure I entirely agree upon (but I also am not sure I 100% got the audience argument correctly).
You could argue Supreme was much closer to being a NY-denominated skate brand that happened to embody bits of Lower East Side culture from punk to rap, from Dipset to Kate Moss etc. and was a culture steeped in the intersection of its geographical surrodungs + skate.
TL;DR: the audience’s reaction makes sense if you subscribe to the view that this corner of streetwear is rooted in Black and NYC culture. From that lens, he’s a guy from the Long Island ‘burbs who loves skating and sailing, but profited from a larger scene/era and now seems to be distancing himself because it no longer fits his self-image.
Watching the full interview, he comes off as someone who genuinely wants to stay a purist artist, uninterested in how big streetwear became. He’s a Gen X-er who rejects all labels and just wants to make what he likes (which is fair), and as your piece points out, not unique. It’s just also natural that this would be the reaction.
Haha don't apologize for putting out some insightful thoughts.
I've been thinking about this a lot, asking some other peeps their thoughts. I would never ever negate the importance / role of black culture in streetwear/sneaker culture's growth. It's undeniable from their creative and consumer impact. But I guess I haven't been able to (cleanly) define the balance between personal interests vs. the broader macro landscape (i.e. Black & NYC culture) and how you reconcile the two.
I could easily be as guilty of the same POV as Babenzien, where I just checked myself out of the whole culture, cause while the stories/energy of streetwear/fashion were exciting at times, the end product (hardcore consumerism) pushed me away. I'm sure a lot of peeps see me as some "fashion expert" past on past context when it's not the case anymore haha. I know nothing about the relevance of brands today cause I'm just hella disinterested. I can't shake the past, but any misinterpretation is honestly much more innocent than the context of Noah/Babenzien I imagine.
I feel like the more interesting thing about this whole situation was this seemingly irresistible urge to definitively categorize Noah and Babenzien. You called it an aside, but your comment about NIGO and Pharrell, I felt was actually the main point.
The easier something is to define or categorize, the easier it is to consume or dismiss. NIGO, Pharrell, maybe even Babenzien will continue to defy and expand beyond any simple categorization. And as an artist, isn't that the whole point?
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve been doing a lot of brand strategy work and thinking about brand perception lately and this kind of content and framing is so rare to find!
The tension between product and art and making it based on what *you* want as a way to make it resonate with your audience is so real and such a fine line to walk.
Thanks for the comment!
Yeah it's honestly a bit of a tough one. I think there are sort of two worlds of thought that come to mind (and that may be an oversimplification).
A "product' first approach arguably takes the stance of catering to the needs/feedback/trends and through continued success, it then potentially ecomes a brand (with extended product lines).
The other approach is obviously less focused on singular products, but rather needs to be more emotive/world-based (fashion essentially).
I think the business mindset of both is slightly different by virtue of the process of building the business and the mid/long-term sustainability due to the creative driver's sustained interest (which is what I argue for).
I stumbled upon your comment on that IG post and was hoping you’d expand on it, haha.
As someone outside the streetwear world, I’ve always read Noah as distinctly preppy and coastal. I went to school near Newport Beach and now spend time in the Northeast — so the sailing cues and “elevated/approachable Americana” come across pretty overtly. I didn’t know much about Babenzien, which tells me the brand’s positioning is working at least for general consumers like me.
I think Amanda’s point sits in a school of thought that even if contemporary streetwear has been so commodified by global Hypebeast culture and celebrity influence that it’s lost its original roots, for the Black community, credibility will always matter. The audience was still having a conversation about cultural authorship and authenticity — one Babenzien made clear he wasn't interested or willing to engage with anymore.
Whether he realized it or not, this was an exit interview and it wasn’t handled with much grace or savvy, haha. I’m a long-time TCRF subscriber, and Recho will always go for the provocative poke if she sees the opening (which we love her for). I just wonder if he or his team prepped for that moment at all.
But in the end, it doesn’t matter. As the founder, he has full agency. Only time and his double down investments will help equally weigh out his resume as you pointed out.
Thanks for the well-thought-out comment.
Honestly, I find it unfortunate that we need to tie so much of our identity to "what we do/have done" which seems to be the main sticking point. This is probably a bit of a tangent, but there's a loss of free will if we need to continually manage the expectations of past work.
The aspect of cultural authorship and authenticity is an interesting point.Could you could elaborate on it?
The way I saw it was that the audience felt slighted cause to say Noah wasn't a streetwear brand was to basically turn his back on black culture, which I'm not sure I entirely agree upon (but I also am not sure I 100% got the audience argument correctly).
You could argue Supreme was much closer to being a NY-denominated skate brand that happened to embody bits of Lower East Side culture from punk to rap, from Dipset to Kate Moss etc. and was a culture steeped in the intersection of its geographical surrodungs + skate.
haha, sorry for the long responses 😅
TL;DR: the audience’s reaction makes sense if you subscribe to the view that this corner of streetwear is rooted in Black and NYC culture. From that lens, he’s a guy from the Long Island ‘burbs who loves skating and sailing, but profited from a larger scene/era and now seems to be distancing himself because it no longer fits his self-image.
Watching the full interview, he comes off as someone who genuinely wants to stay a purist artist, uninterested in how big streetwear became. He’s a Gen X-er who rejects all labels and just wants to make what he likes (which is fair), and as your piece points out, not unique. It’s just also natural that this would be the reaction.
Haha don't apologize for putting out some insightful thoughts.
I've been thinking about this a lot, asking some other peeps their thoughts. I would never ever negate the importance / role of black culture in streetwear/sneaker culture's growth. It's undeniable from their creative and consumer impact. But I guess I haven't been able to (cleanly) define the balance between personal interests vs. the broader macro landscape (i.e. Black & NYC culture) and how you reconcile the two.
I could easily be as guilty of the same POV as Babenzien, where I just checked myself out of the whole culture, cause while the stories/energy of streetwear/fashion were exciting at times, the end product (hardcore consumerism) pushed me away. I'm sure a lot of peeps see me as some "fashion expert" past on past context when it's not the case anymore haha. I know nothing about the relevance of brands today cause I'm just hella disinterested. I can't shake the past, but any misinterpretation is honestly much more innocent than the context of Noah/Babenzien I imagine.